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Long Term Goals
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~Cowboy~
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Joined: 08 Dec 2008

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 10:01 pm 
Post subject: Re: Long Term Goals

Dog Cow wrote:


Daz wrote:
What will need more work are everyone's unapproved MODs that seem to be so popular.


Backporting of the phpBB3 templating system.

No, that's too heavy. The speedy templates by Brainy is better, and is the one I'm using for my site.



I don't know about that.. I think even if it turns out to be a bit heavy it would be a great "selling point" if the updated version of phpbb2 would run phpbb3 templates.

Would it slow it down much? Or just take up more space? The way I understand this is that tables load slower then divs. So wouldn't that make up for some of the "heaviness" of this? Since I have never tried it I can't say one way or the other, but it would seam to make sense that you loose a little trying to make it work with some extra coding, and you gain a little with the faster templates.. This would seam to be a wash for the speed issue while still employing all the newer templates. icon_biggrin.gif

Please feel free to correct me if I am wrong, because I don't pretend to be any kind of genius at this, but this seams like it might just work out better then expected.

Yes? No?

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SamG
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Joined: 12 Dec 2008

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Location: Beautiful Northwest Lower Michigan


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 11:04 pm 
Post subject: Re: Long Term Goals

Dog Cow wrote:
I did that two nights ago.

Since nobody here (at least) is arguing that phpBB 2 code maintenance is inherently some huge undertaking, I think this misses the point. Does the phpBB 2 code base get maintained out into the future, or not? And if so, by whom? Is it a use-at-your-own-risk community offerings type of thing, or is it a fork in the road, where testing and deployment are formal and supported?

That's the issue at hand, I think, whether we're talking about security or simple maintenance. To what extent are people interested in maintaining phpBB 2 code, and who will do the actual maintaining if it's to be done? I think those are a couple of the questions involved in considering long term goals for this site.
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Daz
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Joined: 17 Dec 2008

Posts: 32
Location: Yorkshire, England


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 11:34 pm 
Post subject: Re: Long Term Goals

Hi,

Dog Cow wrote:
Daz wrote:

Security updates/fixes.

For MODs? I think I can get the accord of everyone here that it's the unapproved MODs which need the updates/fixes more than the approved ones. And unfortunately, it seems like a lot of the popular unapproved phpBB MODs (everyone ought to know of some) are the ones with the security errors/bugs.


No, phpBB only.

I shall have a look at the Speedy Templates, but my reasoning behind using the phpBB3 templating parser is that it gives the theme designer (and MOD writer) much needed (creative) flexibility and power.

Daz
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Jim_UK
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Joined: 19 Nov 2008

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 10:31 am 
Post subject: Re: Long Term Goals

I see little point in developing phpBB2.
I would guess that most folks that have registered on here have done so because they are either happy with it as it is and have no desire to move on to phpBB3 or have put so much time into their version 2 site which is doing all they want that they see little point in upgrading to version 3.
The main motive behind coming on to here for myself and I guess many others is that we intend to stick with phpBB2 but are concerned about possible exploits and are hoping that someone with the know how is going to produce fixes.
I would bet that if there was a major security issue in a month or so that the membership on here would quadruple.

Jim
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dogs and things
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Joined: 18 Nov 2008

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Location: Spain


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 10:58 am 
Post subject: Re: Long Term Goals

I fully agree with Jim,

I don´t see a need for developing what is, maintaining it and if needed adapting it so that it will keep up with environmental software changes is all that needs to be done to phpBB2 as it is.

Plus keeping it safe.

An additional motivation for my being here, and I'm sure that goes for most of us, is to give support, within my possibilities, to others that seek help with whatever issues phpBB2 related they might have.

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roadhog
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Joined: 19 Nov 2008

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 3:39 pm 
Post subject: Re: Long Term Goals

Finally, someone said what I didn't have the guts to say, after seeing all the ambitious rhetoric regarding development, that has preceded. Thanks Jim! You took the words right out of my mouth. That is exactly how those of us who are truly phpbb2refugees, view this site, and it defines why we are here, and you have concisely and articulately stated how we feel about phpbb2 development.

Obviously, those members who are here to "see how this site develops" still don't get it. They are ambitious, and they obviously have some excellent ideas, and great insight, but they truly don't understand why most of us don't want to "upgrade".
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~Cowboy~
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Joined: 08 Dec 2008

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 5:00 pm 
Post subject: Re: Long Term Goals

I respect the above opinions but respectfully do not see why we can't have our cake and eat it too in this situation.

Why can't we support the older versions and mods while developing the next step?

IMO this is how it should have been done in the first place at phpbb.com as opposed to making an entire new project that cripples the user.

I would like to see phpbb2 get to the next stage that it should be at right now if phpbb3 had not side tracked its development.

I think everyone here is right in one way or another however, If the phpbb2 train never again leaves the station then it is doomed.

I do not except that we should eventually let phpbb2 die due to lack of development. I believe it should developed as if phpbb3 never existed in the first place and continue on the legacy. If the code needs to be fixed then lets fix the code.. If it effects the mods then lets update the mods as necessary as the problems are realized.. Meantime though, we should do as much as can be done to support the older versions, between now and the time there is an exceptable code upgrade completed to the point that it can be employed.

If the task seams to be overwhelming then we simply need more hands involved.

I'm looking at about 100 core files total in phpbb 2.

Seriously how hard could that be for a crew of say 10 programmers? 10 files each?

I realize that is a simplification.. however, I think we must put this in perspective. The job although large, is really not a daunting task is it?

Personally I think the Mods would be harder then the core files themselves right? And if the most requested mods are included in the next release then the larger battle is already done.

Add "Subforums" and an "IPlog" and "Quick Reply" and people would be ecstatic with the new project from the start. Add an optional Ajax chat box that can be turned on and off from the ACP and people would scream with delight. Frankly I don't see why people are overlooking the new administrators wants and needs during its development in the past.

I realize that there are people that believe that everything should be a mod... and from my perspective that would be true because if I want it I will simply add it, however the majority of forum users have a hard time with the simple task of installing vanilla in the first place, so as long as they are installing it why not cut to the chase and give the majority of users directly what they really feel they need to have their forum complete?

And perhaps if that seams to microsoft-ish then have a plain vanilla and a loaded release and see which one is most popular and run with that one..

I think the solution to this is NOT staying static with it but to continue moving it forward with it, while listening to phpbb2's public and responding to their needs.

If we only think of our own needs this is going to die pretty fast. IMO this needs to be a community improvement project, as well as a "security patch center".

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Jim_UK
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 6:38 pm 
Post subject: Re: Long Term Goals

~Cowboy~ wrote:
Add "Subforums" and an "IPlog" and "Quick Reply" and people would be ecstatic with the new project from the start.


A bit of a generalization there!
This was/is the beauty of phpBB2 - it is not bloated by things that some want and some do not. If you want it then add it by way of a mod.
Lets take one at a time the things that would make me ecstatic.

Subforums - I have no need/desire for them and that is why I did not add any of the available mods.
IPlog - what on earth is this that I will be ecstatic about. (never heard of it)
Quick Reply - I have no need of it or I could have added it using one of the mods that are already out there.

There are 100's of 1000's of phpBB2 boards out there and my guess is that the vast majority will not be updated to version 3.
In a few years time the main down-loaders of phpBB3 will be new board owners and there will still be many 1000's of active phpBB2 boards with owners only concern being their security.

Jim
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~Cowboy~
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Joined: 08 Dec 2008

Posts: 297
Location: Chicago


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 6:50 pm 
Post subject: Re: Long Term Goals

~Cowboy~ wrote:
And perhaps if that seams to microsoft-ish then have a plain vanilla and a loaded release and see which one is most popular and run with that one..
And thats why I suggested this.^

There is no reason why everyone can not be happy. icon_wink.gif

Quick reply can be disabled also if you find it unnecessary for your board. As for subforums.. you of course, would not have to use them if you chose not to make a subforum.

And I am surprised that you have never heard of Code Crush IP log.
It was run on ForumsPlace.com. 50K plus administrators had access to this in their ACP's. It's a great tool for game boards, boards that experience a lot of trolling, or just keeping track og the bots that visit your board. You can do things like exclude IP addresses from being recorded for members that visit frequently, or all your members if you wish to organize it to see only nonmember visitors ect. It's a extremely useful tool.

The author of the mod is "Darlantan" on Phpbb.com (Kristoffer A. Tjernås) He is said to be working on a phpbb3 version of this but I haven't spoken to him in a while..

Here is an image of one of the older versions of this mod which doesn't have as many cool features as the newer version but still remains my personal favorite.
Code Crush IP Log

If you would like to research Code Crush Log or try it out you can find it here:
http://www.phpbb.com/community/viewtopic.php?t=16917

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Daz
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Joined: 17 Dec 2008

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Location: Yorkshire, England


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 7:13 pm 
Post subject: Re: Long Term Goals

Hi,

I am against adding new features but, if there was a need, you could write a script that generates an on demand download of files that EasyMOD has been run on.

As to those who don't want any updates, maybe this site should be called phpBB2hospice.

Daz
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Jim_UK
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Joined: 19 Nov 2008

Posts: 544
Location: North West UK


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 7:19 pm 
Post subject: Re: Long Term Goals

Ah "IP Log" - that would have meant something but "IPlog" meant nothing the way I was reading it.
Still do not want it though. icon_wink.gif

Jim
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drathbun
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Joined: 24 Jul 2008

Posts: 653
Location: Texas


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 7:28 pm 
Post subject: Re: Long Term Goals

That's why the title of this topic is "long term" goals. icon_smile.gif

The short term goals of this site - as I see it - are to capture and preserve as much information and code and other information (styles) related to phpBB2 as we can. That's enough to keep people busy for a while.

The more I read this topic, however, the more I am warming to the idea of creating a fork and taking it forward. I am a bit hesitant to post more about that in any level of detail, but suppose that we could do this...

Suppose we can create something that looks from the front like phpbb2, with its simplicity and ease of use that helped make it so popular. Suppose that in doing that we get the opportunity to rewrite a lot of the code that has become less efficient / less effective over the years. Suppose that in doing so, we face the same decision made by the phpBB Group in that every MOD for phpBB2 becomes invalid. But we still have a new product that can be supported / enhanced going forward that is based on more modern standards. And finally, suppose that we have a conversion routine that would allow existing phpBB2 board owners to convert to this new system. What do we have?

We have the same situation as they do now with phpBB3. icon_smile.gif We're asking MOD authors to rewrite MODs, styles authors to recreate styles, and we're dropping support for phpBB2. The viscious circle comes back to bite once again. The only difference is that our product still looks and acts like phpBB2 rather than phpBB3. Those with heavily modified boards are probably still not likely to upgrade.

I am really watching this topic with a high degree of interest because, frankly, I didn't think this far ahead when building the site. I wanted to take things slow and see how they played out, and to be honest that's probably still the plan for now. But don't let that stop the discussion, please continue to share your thoughts and ideas. Thanks. icon_cool.gif

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SamG
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Joined: 12 Dec 2008

Posts: 48
Location: Beautiful Northwest Lower Michigan


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 7:38 pm 
Post subject: Re: Long Term Goals

roadhog wrote:
Obviously, those members who are here to "see how this site develops" still don't get it. They are ambitious, and they obviously have some excellent ideas, and great insight, but they truly don't understand why most of us don't want to "upgrade".

How is this obvious? phpBB 2 is the common interest. phpBB 2 "plus" is the common implementation of that common interest, as far as I can tell. What is not obvious is how this site, as a site, views the future of the code that is phpBB 2 and the diverse interests of actual phpBB 2 users.

I surely get that there are different opinions on the matter. Beyond that, there is nothing obvious as far as I can see. Not from a practical point of view (who tests, authors, and maintains the security patches, and where can they be downloaded from?), nor from a phpBB 2 enthusiast's point of view (surely no one believes that phpBB 2 is beyond improvement even if not one new feature is added?!).

That said, it was never my intention to "see how this site develops" by fueling controversy or wasting the time of real, proper, I-get-it-but-you-don't phpBB2Refugees.com users. I can just as well see how this site develops as a lurker, and I'm fine with that.
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Jim_UK
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Joined: 19 Nov 2008

Posts: 544
Location: North West UK


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 7:41 pm 
Post subject: Re: Long Term Goals

Should the "fork" go ahead and we have the same scenario as there is with phpBB2 and phpBB3 then I would have to go and find a site that was going to just maintain the code by way of patching security exploits.

I think that the idea of building a repository for all that is good in phpBB2 is great however and at the moment it is great that there is somewhere to come and discuss phpBB2, help one another solve problems and maybe even get new styles/mods.

Should it fork I shall have to wish you all good luck and goodbye as that was not what I came here either looking for or expecting.

Jim
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Dog Cow
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Joined: 18 Nov 2008

Posts: 378


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 7:57 pm 
Post subject: Re: Long Term Goals

I think that as long as we can agree that there's going to be no one comprehensive solution for everyone, then we can get along.

There's a lot of different reasons for joining this board. My reason is different than that of others.

- I came to exchange code and ideas
- Some others came for basic support
- Still others came for MODs and to ask implementation questions
- Some people are looking to make a fork

That's a lot of different reasons and uses for this web site, but I don't think that any of them should over-power another, or cause users to leave. In my opinion, this could all co-exist.
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