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Long Term Goals
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~Cowboy~
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Joined: 08 Dec 2008

Posts: 297
Location: Chicago


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 9:52 pm 
Post subject: Re: Long Term Goals

I can see no reason whatsoever to limit ourselves to the old code.

I am thinking along the lines of full support for the past while at the same time updating the code and looking towards the future.

Like I said there is absolutely no reason why we can not have our cake and eat it too.

I say continue the phpbb 2 support as long as humanly possible while at the same time developing its future Phpbb Plus or whatever it ends up being called.

I say. long live phpbb 2, and you can not have that if forward momentum is completely lost.

BTW, I am all for supporting phpbb1 also if by chance some one drops in with a question..

Keep it all alive as long as possible. And start building its future also. Thats how it should be.

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espicom
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Joined: 24 Nov 2008

Posts: 55
Location: Woodstock, IL


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2009 1:24 am 
Post subject: Re: Long Term Goals

drathbun wrote:
The short term goals of this site - as I see it - are to capture and preserve as much information and code and other information (styles) related to phpBB2 as we can. That's enough to keep people busy for a while.


Which reminds me... I think the KB forum should be set up to not allow replies, in the general case. Members can post, but not reply. Just as a way to keep the KB solutions "pure". There shouldn't be a need to "support" a KB entry. If there is, it should be in a different forum...
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Daz
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Joined: 17 Dec 2008

Posts: 32
Location: Yorkshire, England


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2009 2:25 am 
Post subject: Re: Long Term Goals

Hi,

I understand why some people are averse to change, but surely this wouldn't extend to a more efficient/secure version of phpBB2?

If I understand correctly, publishing details of improving the code would be OK with many here, but making the code available as a distribution to make it better for the rest of the world wouldn't? I aren't in favour of transforming phpBB2 into something akin to phpBB3, only in making what is there the best it can be. Unfortunately that means the MODs will get broken, but if they are important enough then they will get updated -- or as the project is not seen as being dead, better replacements provided.

In a way I should be happy as it means that I don't need to do a great deal.

Daz
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roadhog
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Joined: 19 Nov 2008

Posts: 95
Location: Central Texas


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2009 3:05 am 
Post subject: Re: Long Term Goals

Personally, I have nothing against progress and/or improvement, and there is certainly nothing wrong with making something as good as it can be. However, my definition of improvement, definitely does not include the words "broken MODs". That's what made me run backwards from phpbb3, in the first place.
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dogs and things
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Joined: 18 Nov 2008

Posts: 621
Location: Spain


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2009 7:54 pm 
Post subject: Re: Long Term Goals

Quote:
I can see no reason whatsoever to limit ourselves to the old code.
And I canīt see no reason whatsoever for important changes, my board as it is is perfectly okay, no probs, no wishes other than wanting to keep it as it is.

As least for now and a considerable time to come.

Of course, it is a tempting idea to "modernize" the actual code or maybe even the product as a whole.

But if this will mean f.i. that MODs break I am not interested. It took me a lot of time to put together what I've got and I do not want to have to redo everything. If I were interested in redoing basically everything I'd upgraded.

So for me, maintenance YES, forking NO, I want phpBB2, not phpBB2,5.

Also, bear in mind that for a mayor undertaking a solid team is needed. Before even considering redoing a project like phpBB2 other goals should be set, like forming a team prepared to work on such a project.

I'd like to add to the above that I am not a coder so I do not even suspect why and how MODs would get broken if the core code is improved. Anybody willing to give me some insight in this matter, in simple but clear terms, please?

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~Cowboy~
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Joined: 08 Dec 2008

Posts: 297
Location: Chicago


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2009 8:31 pm 
Post subject: Re: Long Term Goals

First, all mods will not break. Only the ones that are effected by the new code changes would break.

All the old mods would still work on your board unless you physically upgraded your phpbb version. Of course no one would be forcing anyone to upgrade so your board would remain unaffected.

If you did decide to upgrade to the modernized recoded version some things might be unavailable at first until all current mods are updated. The unaffected mods of course would still work. So if you were patient and just hung on to your current version eventually the mods you are using would become compatible for the newer version.

I still believe that we should fork because I don't believe it will effect any of the already built forums. And security patches should continue on the current versions so people can keep .23 if they choose to.

I just don't see how this could negatively effect anyone at all or why anyone would be against it. Its not like it would disable phpbb2.0.23 in any way.

And you may find an advantage to it after all when it's completed for your own board. Clean code runs faster and has less problems.

You may change your mind and want to update to the newer version once it's completed.Image link

If the fork never happens though, you will be stuck in limbo forever with an outdated board.. icon_eek.gif

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SamG
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Joined: 12 Dec 2008

Posts: 48
Location: Beautiful Northwest Lower Michigan


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2009 8:42 pm 
Post subject: Re: Long Term Goals

Coming out of hiding just to clarify one point, only because I introduced the idea: Forking a project does not mean, in itself, that anything changes other than responsibility for the code. There is no good reason I can see to resist forking the code, while not forking the code could mean problems, potentially serious ones at least from a "doing things properly and above board" point of view.

For example, it's not at all clear to me that phpBB2Refugees.com (or any other site, for that matter) has permission or authority to release patches or maintenance releases for a product called phpBB 2.0.23. A half dozen other "phpBB 2 support sites" could do the same thing, and I see little good coming from that. Forking the code eliminates all confusion except for all confusion caused by a name change.

A fork does not equal new product. It means only new project. In this case, a fork could mean only assuming responsibility for the code base of an EoLed product in a proper, legitimate, non-controversial way. No other changes required.

EDIT: Which is to say, the decision to fork or not fork is a "do it now or don't do it at all" sort of decision. What gets done with the fork is something that can be decided with more leisure. In that sense I disagree with Dave's fork scenario. There is absolutely no reason I can think of that a fork of the type we're discussing here would have to go down that way.
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Ptirhiik
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Joined: 19 Nov 2008

Posts: 114


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2009 8:47 pm 
Post subject: Re: Long Term Goals

> dogs & things: let's figure some cases as example:
Imagine a function is built to -ie - take care of the topic line display (title, author, date, etc.), as it is repeated at many places. Any MODification implementing such a display would be partially broken as it won't use this new function, and any MODification specifically designed to add data to these lines won't be as is installable, as the lines would have been removed to the profit of this function.

Another - highly probable - scenario would be rewrite all the $HTTP_POST/GET/COOKIE/FILES_VARS to a centralized function to read the external data and secure them once for all, coupled with a decent function to sanitize data put in SQL requests (similar to mysql_real_escape_string() ie). Any MOD dealing with inputs and outputs to database should be reworked to implement these functions. It is quite easy to do and quite similar in all situations, but it means a substantial amounts of modifications to the core code as well to the MODs (install and code sides). Even more if we follow the good sense and get rid of these very dangerous add/removeslashes thingies roaming in every script.

My first example is common sense, and would drastically ease any further modification, but does not bring that much by itself. However, my second example is a minimal requirement than can not be avoided from a maintenance and security perspective.
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dogs and things
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Joined: 18 Nov 2008

Posts: 621
Location: Spain


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 8:36 pm 
Post subject: Re: Long Term Goals

I see what you try to explain to me,

If we want the code to be improved it is inevitable that MODs will have to be updated.

Of course, I also understand that I wouldnīt be very clever if I resist to improve my board's code just because of the fact that I would have to update some of my MODs.

What I fear is that when the code gets updated I find myself with lots of MODs that need to be fixed. I do not know how many MODs might be affected, I fear it'll be many. Who knows.

I also understand that forking doesnīt necessarily mean much more than turning phpBB2 into a new project. That sounds a lot better to me, I thought a fork means more like a phpBB-plus sort of thing, a modded version of phpBB2.

I am all in favor of updating the existing code, even if that would mean having o spend a lot of time working on it. As long as there's a serious commitment to a project I can believe in I am willing to get involved.

How serious is the need to update the core code, are there really big issues?

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Ptirhiik
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Joined: 19 Nov 2008

Posts: 114


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 6:56 am 
Post subject: Re: Long Term Goals

No, but now security reports will be lost as there will be no "official" place to collect them until they become largely public. This means they have to be anticipated, what involves the kind of scenario I've quoted with my second example.
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dogs and things
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Joined: 18 Nov 2008

Posts: 621
Location: Spain


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 11:33 am 
Post subject: Re: Long Term Goals

That's exactly what I consider the important thing we've lost, the security reports collection.

Your suggestion seems very logical, anticipating new breaches. And probably it's the only thing that can be done from this point onwards. I at least donīt see a way in which new hacking reports can be conducted towards this board, without phpBB's assistance. And that assistance seems to be absolutely out of the question.

Do you, Ptirhiik, or anybody else, have any thoughts about how to go about all this, and do you want to share them?

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Daz
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Joined: 17 Dec 2008

Posts: 32
Location: Yorkshire, England


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 1:58 pm 
Post subject: Re: Long Term Goals

Hi,

  1. People to work upon Ptirhiiks suggestions regarding security.
  2. Has security[at]phpbb2refugees.com (or some other means to report) been set up?
  3. Promotion/Visibility;
    1. The phpBB2 Refugees User Bar doesn't do it for me - it's one of those images that people have in their signatures that fails to give any clear and simple message - i.e. you ignore them.
    2. A potentially very difficult one, but people looking for phpBB2 support/updates (via search engines, etc.) need to be arriving here.
    3. Developers of programs/scripts that use phpBB2 need to know about this site. This could lead to mutually beneficial relationships.

Daz
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~Cowboy~
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Joined: 08 Dec 2008

Posts: 297
Location: Chicago


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 3:27 pm 
Post subject: Re: Long Term Goals

dogs and things wrote:
And that assistance seems to be absolutely out of the question.
I am not sure that this is true at this point. It could be,.. but I wouldn't give up on this just yet. icon_wink.gif
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Sylver Cheetah 53
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Joined: 17 Dec 2008

Posts: 426
Location: Milky Way


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 9:19 pm 
Post subject: Re: Long Term Goals

~Cowboy~ wrote:
Add "Subforums" and an "IPlog" and "Quick Reply" and people would be ecstatic with the new project from the start.

I do not agree. This ar hard to install MODs so pleople will need to do a lot of work. It's like moving over to phpBB3, just too much work. And this for stuff that most don't use. I use Simple Subforums, but the majority of people do not need subforums on their board and you can observe that in phpBB3 boards, where subforums are included by default, almost nobody uses them. IPlog it's only for who needs it, does not seem very interesting to me. I use Super Quick REply and yes, I think it makes the navigation faster because people can reply without clicking on "post reply, so it's a lot faster. I think... hmm... maybe this could be included, but it's not a "must be". People can live without it.
I think that what we need is keeping the forums as simpel as possible because this is what we love about phpBB2. Maybe some security MODs like "Main Admin Security", but only if they are easy to install. What we need is those change that will make it fully compatible with PHP6 and maybe some other old codes that maybe do not work like they used to. So some code rewritting will be good, as I understand. I understand that phpBB2 is easyer to hack then phpBB3, so maybe some security fixes... But itr must still be as easy and clean as possible, there's no need of big MODs included, in my opinion.

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~Cowboy~
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Joined: 08 Dec 2008

Posts: 297
Location: Chicago


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 1:35 am 
Post subject: Re: Long Term Goals

Sylver Cheetah 53 wrote:
I do not agree. This ar hard to install MODs so pleople will need to do a lot of work.
I think you misunderstood. What I was suggesting was pre-installing the sub forums mod so people will not have to do the complicated installation their selves at all.

I find that subforums is one of the the most requested mods, if not... perhaps the top requested mod. This seams to indicate that if they know how to use it,.. it would be used. Perhaps it's just to hard to use in phpbb3. On support boards one of the top questions asked is "How do I make a subforum?" This may be why you are not seeing a lot of subforums in phpbb3 because people don't know how to do it because of the complexity of the ACP. icon_wink.gif

Besides if they don't want it, they don't have to use it. icon_wink.gif But at least it would be available to those who need to use it.

Subforums make your index page load much much faster because you don't have to load every single forum you have on your index page.

Example: If you have 100 forums they may be able to be divided into 4 parent forums.

So you have this as you index page:(Allowing your clients to go directly to their interest.)
  1. game 1
  2. game 2
  3. game 3
  4. game 4

Instead of this on your index page.:(This can slow your index page load times)

  1. game 1
    1. forum
    2. forum
    3. forum
    4. forum

  2. game 2
    1. forum
    2. forum
    3. forum
    4. forum

  3. game 3
    1. forum
    2. forum
    3. forum
    4. forum

  4. game 4
    1. forum
    2. forum
    3. forum
    4. forum
This is why subforums can load many times faster. Image link

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